Conversations with Chinese Intelligence Officials

So Syria came calling, sending a delegation to China, saying that Syria was interested in Chinese arms too since they had observed the successful Chinese missiles in Saudi Arabia and Chinese arms in Iran and Iraq and in Egypt. And China said, all right, anything but ballistic missiles. And Syria said it was exactly the ballistic missile that they were interested in. Because this was exactly what they could not buy from the outside world. Both the USA and the Soviet Union were forbidden to sell these arms to Assad. China was the only country to sell missiles of this kind to any foreign country in history. The East Wind. So the Syrians said, OK, let's make an agreement. We are not going to sell you intermediate range missiles, but we can sell you short range ballistic missiles. Which is the M9 series and which is really all they need. China was shrewd on this. China told them, but so far we do not have the missiles, and that is because we are still in the design and developmental stage for these missiles. We are unfortunately short of funds at the moment. So if you’re interested in the missiles really you can participate in their development by providing financial contributions at the moment, which is what we need. To the research projects. This meant an immediate infusion of foreign currency to China, which is exactly what we needed. And once the missiles come out, in three or four years time, this will be an advance payment and you can then be provided with them. So the Syrians, of course, they were interested. They wanted anything ballistic, no matter what the price. They were very interested in hitting Israel and this was the weapon that they could do it with. Whatever the price. The only thing that could safely hit Israel was a ballistic missile, because Israel's air defense capability was extremely good, especially the air force. So now the Israelis were worried. Especially about the Bekka Valley. When Israel planes wiped out all of the SAM missiles provided to them by the Soviet Union. They were infuriated by this by the poor quality and perofm4ance of the missiles provided by the Soviet Union. So they wanted to buy ballistic ones, and by ballistic ones I mean that once they are launched against a target, unless there is an SDI program, they cannot be countered. By ballistic I mean once they are launched against a target, once they go into the atmosphere and then they come down, that means you cannot see them. Unlike a Scud missile, which you can see. A cruise missile is a ground skimming missile, But these you cannot see them until they reemerge into the atmosphere of the earth, and that is only moments before the explosion. So they are impossible to put a ground or air defense against them. That is why the USA is developing an SDI program. So the Syrians loaned the money to the Aviation and Aeronautic Industry. They have a lot of research institutes. The function of these is the developments of intermediate or short range ballistic missiles. So, the Syrians did that. Provided the money. And later on China provided the Missile launchers. And quite high ranking officials from the Aviation Industry, they personally supervised the shipping of the launchers and the first missiles to Syria. That means they were on the ship. That means they flew on the planes and they were there in advance of the landing of the launchers and the ships. They supervised the safe delivery, camouflage, transportation and everything. How much money did they provide? Millions or billions(Something that we talk about later on)

So now the Syrians have launchers. The western intelligence experts have spotted launchers. The launchers were installed by Chinese technicians. But I seriously doubt that Syria has obtained at least a couple of missiles already. They have, I think. Due to the financial contributions to the program.. It is impossible for China to stop this deal now. The only thing that can actually stop this or make China refrain from this is that all of a sudden it was exposed in the world. So it is not longer a secret, so China will be more careful. She will postpone her deployment for a time. But just for a time. By short range missiles I mean about 375 miles. An IRBM is more than 1,000 miles. The accuracy of these is, what do you call it, the smallest error circle, for this missile, is very insignificant. If it carries nuclear war heads, you can forget it, since you do not have to be that accurate. This is the last card, of course, that China holds in its hand. Now that you guys all have these missiles capable of delivering a nuclear warhead, now I know that you cannot develop a warhead by yourself. The only country capable of developing that warhead and placing it on the missile is China itself. See, so in order for your guys to acquire delivery of a nuclear warhead, then you must maintain good relations with China and, in time, you might get what you want. Later on. But it depends on the bilateral relationship. And now, all the Arab world, has diplomatic relations with China.

China, in the nuclear non-proliferation agreements, says only that it is willing to consider signing the treaty. But it still needs to have ratification of the people's Congress, which is not going to be held until this year later. And even if the Congress approves, and if China signs this treaty, I seriously doubt, who signs this treaty. The Foreign Ministry. And what in the world is this foreign ministry? It is nothing. Nothing in the arms export circles. It has no power. But China needs a foreign ministry for communication with the West. So they are caught x somewhere in the middle.

So the defense system is a state unto itself, and Poly Technologies is the head of the family.

Poly Technologies. Why am I providing you with all of this background information. Few people know about this, the inside history of Poly Technologies. Few people know about this. Few people know this story. One of the reasons why the US did not protest Chinese arms sales in the past was because the Soviet Union was still there. Gorbachev came to power in 1985. Before 1985 China and the US military relationship was very close. I personally saw, was in the crowd watching a parade for, a Naval parade for the Secretary of the Navy and for Caspar Weinberger, and Lehmann, they were in Beijing. Lehmann I saw him twice and each time he was in the Naval compound. The Navy held a military parade for his arrival, in their headquarters in Beijing. This was not widely known. In China, this was not publicized, they just said he was in Beijing, Lehmann. The discussions that they carried on, there was an official and unofficial agenda. They spoke of cooperation in the Naval field. The trainer warship that went to Hawaii the year before, and the US warships visiting Shanghai. These were the results of agreements that we never knew about. Cooperation of the two countries in -- we can talk about that later. A lot of things. The US contributed, prior to 1987, significantly, to the Chinese. In 1987, the US began to change its attitude and then more dramatically in its attitude toward China. 1989 to be exact. But 1989 was a turning point, because of Tiananmen Square. Gorbachev came to power, and your government knew the Soviet Union was going to be significantly weakened, and it would be liberalized. Any communist country that is liberalized, to a certain degree, that means that its defense capability is more exposed to western ideas. And that means the more democratic a country is, the less strong it is militarily. Or, if you want to keep a strong military force in a democracy, you are going to have to pay a high price. We know that. Much higher than the same amount of force required in a communist country. That is why your country and Japan pay huge amounts in defense expenditures. While the Soviet Union and China are somewhat more comfortable with their defense expenditures. Because the defense structure is quite different. The pay for logistical supplies and for ground forces is lower in communist countries. And a lot of other things. In the communist society, defense oriented industries have the biggest priorities, see what I mean. That means the people are put in a less favorable position in getting a fair share of the GNP. See. So, that means or that translates into this. The people in the communist world are willing to suffer themselves, in order to pave the way for having a strong military force. That means, deliberately or unintentionally, the people are willing to cooperate with the government to provide a strong military. And that means that once the Soviet Union is shattered, the whole weak economy is exposed. Now the people don't even know how to get through the winter. That shows how fragile and vulnerable the whole civilian economic structure in a communist society is. But look at the defense industries. Look how advanced they are. Look at the Soviet and the Chinese defense industries and then look at their domestic economies. They are as advanced in some aspects of defense technology as the US is. Because people are willing to suffer and to sacrifice. The whole system as designed that way. The system is designed that way. The military gets the top priority. Deliberately or intentionally the people are willing to accept that fact as part of their lives. The product of the Chinese society is the People's Liberation Army and the Red Army of the Soviet Union. They enjoyed an extremely high social status, and that is why in China the children of families with high social status want to join the PLA or be affiliated with the PLA in China. You know. Especially now days, joining the PLA is never for money purposes.

The army is like a state to itself. The army has now its own plantations, the army even grows poppies. For profit, of course. And they sell it throughout the world. But officially. We can talk about that later on. Believe me, some of the drugs sold on the streets of Washington, D. C., near the White House, is no doubt from China. If it is good, then it is. China successfully uses family ties and influences of the people in the Golden Triangle, to influence and infiltrate the structure of the world drug trafficking. China played that card, capitalizing on the Chinese who worked and controlled the Golden Triangle but who left their families behind in China, in the mainland. The people in the Golden Triangle, they realized that they still need to rely on China. And the people there, a lot of them Chinese, they provide them with advanced processing techniques, with laboratories, they provided them with equipment. China served as their logistical supply base before that time. All the Chinese knew that, but in the West they don't seem to know this. Few people know this in China, and there has never been wide exposure of this in China, of course.

It is one of those issues that never comes before the public. And even it is, it was decided already politically and so there is no room for debate on this. This is serious, and it generates profit. When something is not that serious, not that central, then the Party throws it out for individuals to debate in a silly way. But the issue is not serious, like abortion or something. Zhao Ziyang and Deng Xiaoping of course were informed of this, had access to this information, but they never bother themselves with the details. Never. As long as the profits are generated, and as long as you guys take care of yourselves, then you guys are all right no matter what you do. Whatever means are required, you do it yourselves. Your defense is short, we are going to cut you, so whatever means you use to make money is all right. You just figure it out yourselves. They provided logistics, processing techniques, in order to be more competitive in the international markets. That is why a lot of things were shipped through Chinese continent. Thailand and Indochina, that is a very nice route. And now China maintains a very good relationship with Burma(Myanmar) the military regime. I still have the article in my suitcase, very fantastic. Now they are building a road, building another one. From Kunming down into the Golden Triangle, just like the one that we built linking Lhasa and Szechwan. The PLA lost thousands of soldiers lives during the building of that road. Due to the extremely severe weather. And actually on the way the PLA advanced into Tibet, it was built bit by bit. That is a road out of no road, out of no natural route, and the road conditions on that road are very tough.

The plantations in the South that grow poppies. That explains why much of the heroin of the world is trafficked through China. But China is now under more and more pressure to stop this. They say that they have arrested hundreds of people and executed those traffickers. Who were these individuals. There are always civilian drug dealers, but they were nothing in the international traffic. And among the hundreds of people arrested in China and shot dead, the business goes on. And it is run by the PLA. I doubt that many individuals within the government know about it. The PLA is run by people at the top and they know, but many people in the middle don't know. Zhao Ziyang and Deng Xiaoping of course should know. But the question is do they really care, does it really make any difference to them. The problem was that they had no money for the PLA and so they had asked these individuals to make their own money, we know longer have enough money to give you. And that is why the PLA had its own plantations and its own factories. This is why they would have an aircraft factory also turning out motorcycles. domestic CIVILIAN production comes out of military production, and radar production facilities produce color televisions. They are capable of doing that. The submarine plants turn out motorcycles, too. Which turn out to be very successful, actually. The PLA was forced into that by the need for money and particularly for foreign currency. But the people at the top, they never really want to know much about that. They simply look at printouts of production and they want to know what the profits are. You know they don't care about where the money comes from. And if the Yunnan district comes up with millions in profits, that is good. But do you think they really care where the profit comes from. They know that the PLA generates enough revenue for the defense modernization. And so the conclusion drawn is that the PLA is capable of taking care of itself. The leaders, Deng and Zhao, they were really pleased with what the army had accomplished. That was a big reduction of the burden on their shoulders. Now they no longer have to worry about generating money for the army.

When they get their annual report, they get a report that says, in Kunming military region, for example, we have generated how many US dollars in revenue due to front line production, which we are always encouraged to do. That is hugely profitable. They never question that business. Unlike the arms sales in the Middle East, which also generate profits, unlike when it comes to ballistic missile sales or nuclear materials technology, then the Generals in the PLA know that they can no longer be responsible for this and they must include it in their reports.

I know personally the reporting echelon from Poly to the Politburo, or to the CCMC, they report that directly. When I was working in Poly, almost daily I saw the signatures from Li Peng and Zhao Ziyang, they just signed off on our business. That is the funny part about the business. The funny part about the Chinese arms sales business to international market is that those people who are in the position, like if you are the premier or the general secretary of the party, you must sign the documents. Because tomorrow, at 8 in the morning, the first thing you see on your desk is a report from Poly or from the General Staff, saying that we want to buy or to sell something from the Middle East or from the West, and now we need your signature. These people What they are concerned about at that time, is that they want to stay at their post for as long as they can. They do not want ever to offend the military, they know that the military is always powerful in China.

When it comes to official reports, nobody is going to stop them. If you are Zhao Ziyang you have to sign. Even though you might not be entirely sure as to what is going on. Although you know so little about what is going on. The people who really know the business, who come up with the ideas of what to do, they were always behind the scenes and there is no way you can stop them. When it comes to the official report, no one is going to stop them. You sign, even though you know so little about what is going on. Behind the scenes are the people who really formulate policy, and there is no way -- believe me -- that you can stop them.

That is the funny part of Poly Technologies. That is why, say, Norinco, if you have a hundred missiles to sell to Iran, and Poly knew that you were going to generate profits for yourselves, then, ever since Poly was established in 1983, because it was so powerful, and it has the full support of the military and the general staff, and because of the personnel connections, the son in law of this one and the daughter of that one, son of the marshal and daughter of the marshal, they were then extremely powerful, even though these guys are no longer at their posts. They are out of power but they are still in position. See, what I mean is this.

The people who are involved in the decision making process. Sometimes they are a general and sometimes they are civilian. But on the top post, you held the post before, you retired then. That means you no longer hold the post. Right. You know longer go to the official office, but you are still in a position to make the final decision. Like Mr. Deng. He retired from everything but he holds the final say in virtually every decision. This is exactly the pattern that the arms trade in China follows. It has nothing to do with loyalty. It is just a common idea that holds together a small circle of people. And they reach an agreement. And they say, all right, if we sell this missile to Saudi Arabia, we make a political gamble, like three or four people, and they ask, all right, but is it going to be politically risky. Somebody will say that it is, but they don't care about that. And besides, they believe, if we sell missiles to Saudi Arabia, then Saudi Arabia’s government is going to be more friendly toward China, and then later on we can establish diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia. That is exactly what was talked about before the decision to sell missiles to Saudi Arabia was made. Se. They already foresaw the political implications of the deal. Not only for money. Not for money alone, of course. Once the agreement was made, they generate a report and put it in a written form. And then it circulates in a small circle at the top. The official channel. The report finally reaches Zhao Ziyang. But the report, what is written on the report, is not the same material that they discussed behind the scenes. They discussed, behind the scenes, the defense modernization drive, now comes to a critical stage, and we are in a critical situation and we are extremely short of funds, and based on the current evaluations, we came to the following conclusions. The best way to generate the funds is to sell the missiles to certain countries. One of them is Saudi Arabia and one of them is Syria. And what they need, they need something that we don't need. They need something that we want to sell, because we are now out phasing some of the equipment and one of them is ballistic missiles. See Zhao Ziyang was never trained in military aspects at all. He cannot realize the implications, the strategic implications of ballistic missiles, all he knows is the kind of missiles that we have we no longer want to keep. And if we sell them, we are going to generate a lot of money for the PLA. There is no cheaper way to do that. Because you guys no longer need these missiles. So why not sell them?

So the report was ratified. And the decision is already made. So all the PLA is going to do is just to work something out, make sure that the strategic defenses system is shipped off to Saudi Arabia. And the PLA was already committed to the ground maintenance, or installation of this defense system.

Do American military people realize how power is distributed in China/ No, not really. I don't think so. They are always shown something official, like a military parade. They never draw the conclusion that they may be speaking to someone with or without any real power. One thing you must know is that they are not shown everything and they do not meet everybody. They meet only those that they need to meet and never any more than that. The more you are involved in a military relationship or a commercial relationship with the PLA then the more people you meet. And the more you become involved, the more you meet people like me. But still the people you do business with are in civilian clothes. And you also never know where we are going to spend the money that we get from these deals. It is none of your business. But I am still in civilian clothes, I am a company doing business, and that is all you need to know. That is why my company is involved in both export and in import, because they must go hand in hand. What is fantastic about the company is that we seldom keep money. Seldom. Of course we keep it for a certain time before it is turned over. But, the objective is to spend it for the PLA. So, like Norinco, it has one hundred missiles that they want to sell to Iran, right. And the PLA, we can step in, and this is exactly what happened.

The money is used to buy weapons from the US and from other countries. Part of the revenue is kept for ourselves, but the biggest portion goes to the PLS because that is our objective, our reason for being.

Talk about overseas Chinese later on.

1983, the reason for the founding of the company and the environment under which it is created. There were 100 missiles that Norinco wanted to sell to Iran. And we stepped in. We are the same as the equipment department of the General Staff. We do things for them and they do things for us. Poly does not have to do that, we are the same as the equipment department of the general staff. Once you have to deal with foreigners, then it is Poly Technologies that does the business. Once some domestic issue is involved, the General Staff is going to step in. Say, they want to sell missiles to Iran, and the General Staff steps in, and they say, the PLA needs these missiles, then you cannot sell them. Then the PLS buys these missiles from Norinco at an extremely low price, and then we sell them at a high price and make a profit for the PLS. That is why the other companies involved in the business -- that is exactly what happened -- that is why the other companies -- involved in the business, always cherish strong grievances against Poly because we have the advantage. In truth, in formally, Poly is really a branch of the PLA supply department, but officially it is registered under the Citic Group. Unofficially, behind the lines, it is the supply department of the PLA. Everyone knew that you guys on the elevator going to the seventeenth floor, to our company, you cannot do so without permission. It is not something you do without permission. You just don't knock on our door and open it. Even if you are senior people or ordinary people, they don't know what is going on.

The telephone line between the General Staff and Poly? We don't need that. They have their secret telephone numbers. and we have them. Secondly, they have direct access to those people's compounds, which is extremely heavily guarded. But some of the individuals that I work with, th9is evening I am going to speak to Yang Shankun, and at first he was just trying to impress me, I thought. I didn't believe him. And then he did it. And he told me, I just drove my car into the compound. And I thought, "My God, you just drove into the compound!" And in fact, he just drove in. The guard saw the plate number, and he didn't look at the face. He just looked at the plate. If you are in the car you are safe. Some of these guys can drive into see Deng Xiaoping whenever they want to. But the foreign minister, if he wants to see Deng, they tell him wait a minute, you have to find out if he is busy or not. Access at any time, and if Mr. Deng is taking a shower he will still interrupt it to see us.

Intermarriage in the company. It is kind of a family run business you might say, but that still is not quite accurate. Because it is run by several families. And they are interchangeable. Almost like the Mafia. You could say that. There are a lot of things in the company, but you cannot understand it. There is a code of silence like in the Media, an agreement of consent, Omerta, I know what you are doing, but I never ask you. That is what it is. And you know what I am doing, but you never ask me about it. I don't feel comfortable if you ask me too many questions. That is what happens inside the company. That is why, when I left the company, nobody seemed to care. You are no longer with us when you go. There are about a half a dozen, no more, that intermarry and run the company. But some of them, although the foreigners tend to think, of Deng Xiaoping and Yang Shankun, that they are the most important leaders. But actually, there are a lot of people from the military families, individuals with careers in the military, whose father's may have been generals or marshals, and they are well entrenched. And they are extremely well informed, and very well informed and influential. Each day, at eight in the morning, they read information that is then forwarded to Deng. They provide a summary to him. What is happening in the world. They get the same information. These are never diplomatic officials, of course. But they are more powerful. These are not the guys you read about in the papers. What they say is extremely business like. That is the bottom line. They are businessmen. What is the bottom line of business. As to Saudi Arabia. They will write: Saudi Arabia. Critical stage. Need arms. Cannot buy from the US. Fantastic opportunity for us to step in. Then political costs. Financial costs. Yes. Military considerations. Israel possible response. Appendix one. Israel relationship or ambition for relations with China. How we can make use of that. Conclusion. Israel will remain silent. We can do this. The reports are generated from the head of the state security agency for the army intelligence, they have agents or spies around the world, of course. Very few people are involved in the final processing of this information. A large number of course are involved in gathering the information. But they read purified information and they purify information, they condense it. They put their ideas, their twist or spin on it. They are then responsible for their analysis. The archives for these reports are maintained. On a couple of occasions we saw these reports. They are kept in a small circle of individuals within the families. They then keep it within the families. What are the last names of the families -- six of them. So, they are, this is the perfect background for understanding Poly. If you say it is like the Mafia, then it is. If you use that word, you use it. But I would not use it. This is a small family group with a code of silence, tremendously powerful and influential. And the cardinal characteristic of them, of course, heavily committed.

Heavily committed but to what? But, not at a post. Committed to the modernization of the PLA. These are extremely loyal individuals, you must remember. Loyal to the PLA. The individuals writing the reports, generating them, of course, they know exactly what it is that will attract the attention of these leaders. And those who generate repots, know what the others are thinking and how they think. So in the case of Saudi Arabia, the political risks, costs, Chinese involvement in installation and maintenance were all part of the report. Israel response, US response, and so on. And then the best way of doing the business, to keep it a secret, that also is part of the report. Possible US response. In order to keep it a secret, the best way of shipping, arrangements, payments, and so on. And how many people will be involved in the business arrangements, and finally it is stamped top secret. And if you look at the fucking real world, the public world, the Chinese newspapers, the People's Daily, then they talk about something else. And American academics and policy makers they read that material and we know that, and they interpret it and they draw the wrong conclusions, they are good at that. They study our bullshit and they draw conclusions from it, every conclusion but that it is bullshit. They think they understand Poly or they understand the army and they understand not one goddamned thing. They listen to the most stupid information imaginable. They have your number. You know, living here in China, I never realized how really unique we are. Then I spoke with visiting American academics and dignitaries, and I realized how stupid they were. I visited Washington and it was the same story. Ignorance. They study bullshit. This is almost funny if it were not pathetic. They hear this or that and they listen to the radio. They were experts on the most stupid things I could imagine. I could not believe my ears when I heard them. They were teachers and policymakers and they knew nothing about how China really works. I knew what I was doing on my job. I never stopped to think about how unique we are. I just knew what I was doing. But after I visited the United States did I realize the implications of the piles of bullshit we had been shoveling into the press. Then I read the papers in the US and listened to individuals at an official reception. And I realized it was nuts. You are nuts.

Perhaps some of this information will enlighten. I think it is about time for somebody to make the American people to realize what in the hell the reality is of China, what you are dealing with. This is not "The Good Earth" or "The Last Emperor," for God's sake. It is the whole world that they want to control, in fact. And you refuse to believe that, absolutely refuse. This is exactly the forbidden city in international politics and in international business. This is what they want to have and what they do not have. But maybe someday they will. What makes things work. Lots of people, by the way, think that they do have access, at least they have knowledge to know what is going on it China. But they cannot get inside the walls of that Forbidden City that the inner circles have built. As soon as your government asks your think tanks to find out how business is carried out in China, a lot of people who are supposed to know the way that we think, from Rand and Stanford and from Michigan, where people are very good at pretending that they know China, so whenever the government expresses an interest, a lot of people without doing much research come to a ready-made quick conclusion. They say, ok, we know enough about China and about this company and here are the answers. This is worse than crazy. This is dangerous. They say, OK, the company was founded at this time, and it is headed by top families and these are the people in it and so on, and it, well they use a lot of information. And believe a lot of the reports generated for the White House and people believe those reports because they are put together by "the China experts" in the United States. But tell me, this, "How in the fuck do they know what is going on in China, especially in the forbidden city. They don't even know it exists, let alone understand it, for God's sake. Let me put it this way. Nothing of substantial value has ever been released or published by an American think tank. Poly might have placed agents within American think tanks or universities, but that is not necessary. Because they Americans obviously know nothing.

Now there are agents -- our "friends" -- in organizations. And when we need information we get it. Let me give you an example. On American aircraft carriers. Let me put it broadly first. We get whatever information we need. Whatever information. It would shock you. It would shock you!

Let me tell you something about your security. I saw books from your warships, time and again, which we translated into Chinese for our own use. The manuals for aircraft carriers and from submarines. That was for our business.

The Public Security System is for the people, but not for Poly. We are above that. I remember on a couple of occasions when I was involved in business, and there was this intersection with foreigners, and I was followed by public security agents. They didn't seem to know who I was. So Poly called them off. They came up on the elevator with me, saw the floor I went to, and they then asked who I was and I never saw them again. I had to go to the American Embassy, for example, and they wanted to follow me.

The people who purchased the cars in Seattle, they were State Security Ministry people. That is equivalent to your CIA. These individuals of course are stationed everywhere. Besides, they have a lot of loyal support, from influential people in America. Now those people, some of them, I know personally. In China I met them first. They have both houses in the US and then also in Beijing. In China they live in luxurious compound, funded by the government. These are all American born Chinese. But these Chinese are well connected with Americans in your country, to be sure. And some of them themselves are well connected and well to do in your country. Of course they do not do what they do for money. They do it out of what they believe is patriotism -- to China. It is a funny world, I tell you. If you include that in your story, few people in America will believe this, I know. And it is a hell of a story. How can you make people in America believe this. When I first met them, I looked into their eyes, and I knew what they were about. I knew what was driving them, why they were taking the risks they were taking.

If we were -- well, the Shangri-La would be the best example of how they work. This was in 1987 and in 1988. Well, in China, I saw a videotape of the ship with our people on board examining the ship, accompanied by blonde-haired, blue-eyed Americans. I saw that video, shown around by people from your government. It was sale for scrap. The video, we did that ourselves. And when the delegation returned hone they showed the videos to our leaders and they showed it to us.

The people who were examining the ship, of course, represented a scrap company, in China. They were really representing us, and a company from \Hong Kong was also involved in that they would tow the ship first to Seattle and then to China. When I looked into these people's eyes, based upon my knowledge of this deal itself, I knew, of coursed based upon my knowledge, these people were not in it for the money, I knew. They did it purely from political conviction. They think your country is rotten. They see it for what it is. Now these people are not communists, they are not members of the Communist Party in our country. The party members think of them, well, the words they use are, "they are extremely helpful." There is little reluctance to trust them. There is an extremely powerful organization within the PLA, whose job is solely to take care of these individuals. I know what that organization is. Their goal is to make use, as much as they can, of the social position of our friends in other countries, including America. And Singapore and everywhere. They have different offices around the world. One office overlooks both the US and Canada and is called Meida, Canada and America. That office. This one over Hong Kong, that one over Taiwan and that one over Singapore. These people, when they go to the office may go in uniform, if they so wish. But if they do not wish, or when they travel, they immediately get a visa from a foreign embassy. The name of the organization, I will tell you, depends on how far we go. Very few individuals know about this organization.