Wednesday, December 26, 2012

1993 Conversation Notes & Tapes

Additional ******* Notes
September 17, 1993

Speaking to me today, ****** told me the following. His Academy was constructed on the site of a Japanese airfield built in the early 1940s in Nanjing. The central parade ground had once been the main landing strip of the airfield.

Second, in Tibet he listened in on American and Indian communication in the sixth fleet. The communication was intercepted through satellite transmission. **** and his friends listened to private and official conversations from the fleet and from the American base in Diego Garcia. In 1982 they first intercepted and decoded and recorded from Diego Garcia the itinerary and the disposition and plans for the sixth fleet. The men who did this were given special recognition. Also they intercepted communications between the US Ambassador in India and the Indian government concerning the Indian position and intention with regard to border talks with China, again a coup. But most of the time they listened to calls between men on the ships and from men to their wives and girl friends. They knew a good deal about the private lives of the men on the ships and the officers. All of this was recorded.

Also, he recalled a fight in 1981 outside a movie theater that did not admit Tibetans. A fight in which shots were fired and two soldiers killed and then shots returned and a dozen Tibetans killed. He was in the theater at that time.

He also told of navy personnel in civilian clothes going to South Korea, purchasing a ship, loading it with cars and bringing it back to China under navy escort to make huge profits in the auto market in the country.

A naval delegation of junior officers and senior officers was invited to the Soviet Union to Vladivostok, to examine some business deals. Were treated royally. They were from the navy logistical department and met with their counterparts. In civilian clothes. Then they had a cooperation agreement between the two parties, they were shown advanced equipment both in the far east naval forces, including ASW and helicopter, but also advanced submarines in Vladivostok. They returned to Beijing and made a report. Because they were a logistical command they had a lot of scrapping companies. Located along the coast, which are fascinating areas now days. Because of the policies. They had special survey teams to the Pacific fleet. The pacific fleet delegation told them, "We have more vessels than we can handle now. We don't have the budget. Both submarines, planes, sea planes and helicopters. Some were obsolete, but many also were advanced. " They said we could work out an agreement. You can tow these ships, submarines, back to your ports. Attack submarines, if we work out a deal, you guys dispatch your tow boats and tow them to your home ports. You can scrap them, you can remodel it, you can modernize it, you can do whatever you do. Just scratch the paint off, put on new paint, and everything is yours. As for the payment. We can work out, if you don't have the hard currency, don't worry We can lease these two you for the first two years and then work out an agreement. They gave all of these strong hints. The naval officers were somewhat astonished at this. The naval officers were astonished. They could not at first believe it. What is happening to the Russians, they asked. But that is the story that they knew when I saw them in San Francisco two weeks. ago. According to my assumption, the reports were analyzed at headquarters and a deal negotiated. The submarines were sitting askew in the water, tied to the docks, that is the only way to prevent them from floating away. Jesus. That would save the PLA a lot of money. That is exactly the area of the responsibility of the logistical department. They have nothing to do with Poly, since it is not standard international business. This will be a secret deal between the two military forces. If you make an agreement you can tow the boats, that it what they said. That kind of deal you can never find a contract for, written on paper. I doubt if the spy satellites are still on top of Vladivostok today, I am sure they are looking somewhere else now. Even if it is covered by the US. So what. The pacific fleet can say they are under routine military training exercise, we are sailing to the yellow sea. The only problem is for them to pass that strait. They give the technical experts, too, that is the whole package, and to man a nuclear submarine, is not such a big problem. The Chinese Navy could do that. The armaments were also part of the deal also. Torpedoes and mines and launching tubes go with the submarines. Russia wants to keep the Black Sea fleet, since they have half rights to it. But they cannot pay their debts to the Russians, the Ukraine, so they want to sell. But also another fascinating story is that

Additional Footnote: Cloning
The original cloning of a foreign weapons system started in earnest with the copy of the Soviet T62 tank. This was, the Chinese say, the first successful copy attempt. This was in 1969. Copies were constructed and studied. But of course the Chinese model was not at first so succesful as the Soviet T62. Later the Chinese improved their model. While doing this work, the Sino-Soviet relationship still hostile. So the Chinese relied on their own research and developed and manufactured a whole series of T62 tanks, tested and tried it and then it was at last officially shown publicly in early 1980s, in the November 1, 1984, National Day parade for the first time it officially went by Tiananmen. The T62 original had been pulled from a river where it broke through the ice and Chinese divers retrieved it. Several lost their lives during this effort. They finally attached cables to it and it was pulled out from the river. The Hei Long Jiang river on the Sino Soviet border. There was a fierce fight between soviets and the Chinese in order to prevent the Chinese from getting this. But finally Chinese got it out. In other border skirmishes, later the Chinese were able to obtain other T 62s.

That was the original attempt to copy foreign work. But in the years after that there were other copies from western models, but there was also a whole series of work with air force, navy and ground forces, almost everything was copied. The Chinese copied and manufactured their own AK 47, modified from Russian model, now the major rifle for the army. One source told me they copied everything in the military but the the uniforms. But important to mention that even so, you cannot say that they cannot manufacture their own. In the early 1970s, several prestigious research institutes came out with joint research papers, telling the general staff that it was more effective to make research this way, by copying rather than by doing basic research, because in this way don't need to expend funds on the initial research, and special copying technologies can take advantage of foreign research. Important also to point out that China not the first to do that, and Israelis also active on copying foreign works.

Copy work involves, the famous Red Flag SAM system, that air force uses. Exact replica of the Soviet Sam system, originally deployed in the Vietnam War, which shot down B 52s from the air. Russian SAMS were manned by Chinese in Vietnam, and Chinese used the Sam copies then to shoot down U2s from Taiwan over the mainland. KMT officers began high level reconnaissance flights, and they were shot down by SAMS, and the pilots were captured alive just like Francis Gary Powers. And the story of Powers in the Soviet Union, they say, was repeated in China but not so widely reported.

Migs from Soviet Union, first group were leased to Chinese air force during the Korean War, the so called BISS plane, fought in Korea. Then, the Soviets passed on the F5, F6, to the Chinese, F6 is the Mig 19, most advanced ever given. But then Chinese research made them able to upgrade the Mig 21, after Sino-Soviet relationship broke up. The Soviets provided the F6 to Pakistan and the Chinese in Pakistan were able to study and return with research and manufacture the same thing. The MIG 21 made by the Chinese is now more advanced than the Soviets. The Chinese then resold the same thing to Egypt, when the US refused to finance the deal of the F5 fighters, when Sadat in hot water, the Chinese helped him out by giving him squadrons of Mig 21s that they manufactured, free of charge. and The Egyptians gave the Chinese public recognition and the permission to let Chinese diplomats to be stationed in Cairo. During the time of the Cultural Revolution, when diplomats withdrawn from all other countries in the Middle East, and Egypt was only one with Chinese diplomats. Recognition had been suspended for period of time.

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